#22 Trauma Doesn’t Define You – An Interview with Robyn Walser

In today’s episode, I have the pleasure of speaking to one of the world’s authorities on the treatment of traumatic stress. Act therapist, trainer and writer, Robin Walzer works at the National Center For PTSD in California and through her own private practice at TL Consultation Services.

I asked Robin to describe the self help tool that she finds the most useful in her own life and how she’s used this in her work with people who suffered long lasting effects of traumatic stress. I think the one that is my favorite is, working with selfless context. And let me just say a little bit about what that is. When from the acceptance and commitment therapy perspective, one of the 6 core processes is selfless context, and it’s about connecting to yourself as the experience or of emotion and thought and sensation, not as those individual events. So there’s a space or a place, so to speak, where you hold these experiences and observe them, yet you are not those experiences that you observed or self as context.

And I one of the things I find most helpful to me when I’m struggling or suffering over, a painful event in my life is to help myself reconnect to that larger sense of the experiencing being. So that sounds really interesting. And I’m wondering if you could break down that process a bit more through through an example like maybe something about the self, maybe about the context. What you mean by those two parts of that that phrase? So, when I’m talking about self, I’m referring to me.

And there’s a broader, of course, literature that has to do with languaging and that kind of thing that I won’t get into. But there’s a me here, a self here, and that that self is the context for all these events, the place. And, maybe if I can give an example that might be useful of So I’m somebody who has all kinds of thoughts about who I am and what I do. I have feelings that are related to my experiences. Some of those are painful and some of those are quite joyful.

And, I’m a being in motion. I’m experiencing these thoughts and feelings and the sensations that come along with them, on a regular and ongoing basis. And so I wanna be mindful to these experiences, conscious of them and aware of the flow of them through, me as a self. This I imagine is quite different for a lot of people to think about like a way of maybe relating to the self is quite a sort of psychological process to go through. And it seems that you’re talking something that’s kind of like a next step on from just becoming familiar with yourself.

You’re talking about another part of you that can take a step back and notice all that’s kind of happening and all that’s kind of going on. Well, the the more maybe, I don’t know if it’s technical or not, but, the observer or perspective taking me the the one who’s able to observe my own experience. And so the self I’m referring to is that observer. And so I wanna do things when I’m struggling and when I’m not struggling as well. I mean, I wanna build this into my practice in an ongoing way where I’m able to observe my own experience or take perspective on these the ongoing flow of experiences that I have.

Yeah. And what sort of positive impact have you noticed this have on you? Well, I can get stuck in stories about myself, You know, that maybe I’m, I think one of my stories that I get stuck in when I’m struggling is that I’m an idiot and I should have known better. Like, that’s a thought that I will come, have during these times of struggle. And, that, what shows up with it is some feelings of pain and loneliness.

And I can get sort of tucked inside of a really deep struggle around why am I feeling this and what do I need to do. And I can actually dwell on it and, you know, end up spending longer periods of time trying to problem solve the idiocy, so to speak. Mhmm. And, it doesn’t get me anywhere. It doesn’t it’s not helpful.

I just end up sort of, I guess, worrying, or trying to, you know, run conversations through my head that will help me sort it out. And, it slows me up in terms of, you know, just connecting to the vitality of life and getting out and being in the world in the way that I wanna do that. And so if I just spend a little bit of time coming back to this observer And rather than, falling into or collapsing into my thoughts and struggling with them, I just gently observe noticing and watching their flow, watching them rise and fall, noticing the emotional experience and all of its subtleties and changes, I feel less, bound to these, less connected to them in ways that interfere with the things that I wanna do. I have more freedom to choose and to move forward and let go more quickly of the things that are that I’m struggling with. I kept an image in my head noticing of some of the difference in the, the qualities of those experience.

Like, just a moment ago when you first mentioned that thought, I’m an idiot, I should have known better, there was there was something that felt like really kind of, restricting about it. Like like, in the moment where that thought shows up, it’s it can be like wearing a straight jacket. Yeah. No. That’s a very good description of it.

When I have that thought, I can get really down on myself. I should have known better sort of leads to why didn’t you do it differently? How can you find yourself in that situation yet again? Why do you let these things happen to you? But when I pull on into the observer perspective and and really just pay attention and notice what I’m experiencing, I can connect to a broader sense of me that has experienced this before.

I’ve been in that place a a number of times. I’ve had those feelings before, and I can see it as a part of my history and it’s something that I experienced, but it doesn’t define me in any way. Like, I’m not sort of bound to those things that my mind is giving me at that time or to the feelings. And so, the straight jacket that is, loosened, and I’m able to be freer rather than sort of tied up, so to speak. Yeah.

It’s interesting you say freer because it it it it it was coming across as as you were describing how you can move away, take this observed perspective that it does have this impact of freeing you up. Yeah. And and I feel like I have choice in those moments where when I’m caught inside of the thought and sort of going down the rabbit hole of, you know, being an idiot or I should have known better. Like, that can be pretty dark. Like, that’s when I feel like I’ve gotta pull away from my social connections and hide and figure this out and get all of those things, you know, taken care of so that, you know, I and I think a little bit of shame even shows up in there too that I wanna, you know, run from that experience as well.

And so the observation of it gives me just enough space, just enough space to see it as an experience that will rise and fall rather than an experience that defines me. Yeah. Just starting to think that you’re not saying that it’s a way of trying to get rid of it. No. And it’s the opposite.

There there’s no attempt to try to fix or change it. In fact, there’s a part of it that there’s a recognition that this will be with me again and that there will be times in the future where I will again be in a position to think I’m an idiot. Why did this happen? Like, I’ll I’m I’m it’s coming. It’s just a matter of when and then how quickly can I free myself?

I’m bound to get right back in the state straight jacket, because these things are intense and painful and sometimes they happen immediately. You know, like, you can imagine, getting reply all on a email where you were saying something to one person. That’s a small example. Right? And then boom.

I’m what an idiot. I’ll get it again. Might show up and you can sort of ruminate on that process. But that’s a small example I wanna get free from that is, not not the thoughts, but the straight jacket of it. And then there can be other things that are huge and much more painful where, you know, I feel like I’ve done something that’s gonna change the trajectory of my life.

You know, when my mind gets rolling around in it and I can when I can observe and have freedom, I can recognize that I have choice in where my life goes, that the the experience that I had that was painful doesn’t actually define my trajectory either. That’s got me thinking about some of the people that, have been able to help, that will describe that wanting wondering why. Why why do I keep kind of, like, doing the same old thing? Why why do why me? Why why do I keep kind of criticizing myself or keep making the same mistake and and searching for that that answer really.

And I the trajectory of that always seems to be like, further suffering, more anxiety, feeling more depression, feeling more low. And I I think you’re saying that that’s kind of it’s like a pivot point or a tool that can help you change the direction. Yeah. I mean, I’m bringing with me into all of my circumstances a learning history that will be triggered by certain events that, that I won’t be able to escape. Like, I’m gonna do things that are gonna elicit or or trigger the thought.

Oh, jeez. That was such an idiot thing to do. And I may not even be able to detect what those triggers are gonna be. It might be a comment that I made to somebody and then they look like they feel bad that I said it and I didn’t intend that or it might be, you know, me really getting caught up in something that’s happening at work and I feel like it’s gonna be harmful to me. So the ray the it’s hard to say, but my learning history is such that, you know, these events can be related and they get triggered.

So it’s clear to me that they’re gonna show up in the future. And even if it’s not a typical event, you know, a lot of life contains all kinds of things that we can’t predict or be aware of. And I I don’t know exactly what might trigger these experiences in the future. But there there is one thing that I can do, and that’s be more aware. And from this observing place, that awareness, that consciousness of that experience can change the trajectory of what I do.

It can’t change the trajectory of those things being elicited or those things being triggered. So if I gonna be aware that there that, that I’m being triggered into these thoughts and feelings, then I’m much more likely to make a choice that would change the trajectory than not being aware and just sort of falling into the straight jacket and, you know, hanging out there for a long period of time. Does that make sense the way I’m talking about it? Yeah. It does.

It’s it’s very clear. It’s a really useful way of looking at it. I know you kind of work in some different settings, Robin. You’ve got your private work and you work at the National Center For PTSD, which is, post traumatic stress disorder, and I think you’re at the University of California as well. Have you noticed these environments that this process here, this this self help tool of of selfless context that you’ve noticed worked for you, have you noticed it helped other people and the trajectories that they’re on?

Absolutely. And, you know, you can think about straightforward mindfulness processes where you’re observing, maybe you’re breathing or you’re doing a body scan or something like that. And we know that those are helpful to people. We’ve got data that supports, you know, reductions in stress, better health changes in relationship to anxiety and depression. There’s a number of things that are that it’s useful for.

I wanna just, you know, sort of push in and add this other piece. And I think a lot of mindfulness people would agree that they’re intimately linked. That selfless experiencer, when you can contact that space and when I, do this with clients, what they realize is that things like, a trauma does and being a victim of a trauma doesn’t define who they are as a human being. It’s not once a victim, always a victim. It’s once a victim.

And I can, move forward in my life in ways that I define, not that my victimhood defines. So inside of the centers that I work in, for instance, we can help people get some freedom from being trapped in their trauma story. And, you know, finding ways to relate to their histories that, are not definitional in nature. The trauma doesn’t define you. You’ve had a trauma and you’ve experienced a trauma, and you may very well have memories and sensations that are related to it, but it doesn’t have to define your life forward.

And this sort of working with observation and seeing yourself as sort of stretching across time. And, you know, that you were there then and you’re here now, that you can witness all of those experiences without being caught up in them can be very powerful for folks that I work with. We’ll be back after this short break. Stress, anxiety, and depression are problems that affect everyone at some time or another. And yet, when you’re suffering, it can feel scary and lonely.

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It’s reminded me of a book I read some years ago, by a former soldier in the 1st World War, and he wrote a book of his experiences there in that setting. And and then there was a part in the book that talked about kind of the experience of having written it as well and described it as a as a catharsis that helped him kind of process that part of his life at that point in time and and helped him kind of I think he was saying not be so marked by it, not be so scarred by it. It just makes me think kind of that process of writing a book sometimes can be a useful way of tapping into that, my life has had stages in it. I was there then, and here I am now, and the future could be something different. Yeah.

And with with some of the clients that I work with who have experiencing PTSD, they it’s like they’re writing the same book over and over again. And the this place of observation can help you let go of that stuckness and you can start to you have that book. It’s true. It happened. It’s real, and we wanna acknowledge and, you know, have compassion and empathy for those experiences, help you to, you know, regain your life back.

But then how many other books are you gonna write, and what will they be? What will be contained in them? And what we wanna do is have it be a rich story of or stories of, an individual’s life, not just the same story over and over again. That said, I’m realizing that, you know, these things get triggered, and even my own idiocy feels like the same story. But it’s only the same story in the sense is that I will have those experiences, but they’re not gonna define what I do and how I live.

So I wanna draw the distinction between feeling these things and moving your feet in directions that matter to you. And so that observational place helps create the position of choices I mentioned so that I could move my feet in the direction that matter, not get so caught up in the story that I’m, you know, not moving my feet not moving my feet. Yeah. It’s you’re hearing you say that as well. It’s not making me think about Groundhog Day with Bill Murray.

But, like, he’s got the same kind of story. Like, it’s the same day every day, but he does different things every day and keeps moving to a point through a point of discovery and I guess kinda coming up with ultimately the best way of living that day. And it’s, like, tied right to, like, love and kindness and, you know, it’s like the his value sort of emerging in those in the last day that he lives that day. Right? Like, that’s and which is what we what we are all shooting for, I think, if we’re if we’re really gonna engage in, meaningful life.

So there’s something here you started to say earlier about how a story can show up for you and that when you move to this place where you take an observer perspective, it’s about helping you notice that story and free yourself up for it. But it doesn’t necessarily get rid of that story, in fact, you said the opposite. It’s actually about acknowledging it, being aware that it could come up again. And then just thinking about some your clients around that may have been traumatized by certain things. I guess there’s always the potential, isn’t there, for that story about how they’ve been affected by the trauma to come round again and to pull them back in.

But you’re saying the difference is not that you don’t get rid of the story, but it it’s it’s how you respond when the story shows up. Precisely. That’s exactly and awareness is the first step. You can’t respond differently if you’re not aware. And so this consciousness helps to create that space.

Yeah. So how easy do you think this is to do? Oh, that’s a good question. I do think it’s it can’t you can get there, relatively easily if you sort of just couldn’t see your experience from the perspective of you seeing, you see your experience. But, I wanna say okay.

Let me say it this way. It’s easy and hard at the same time. Like, you can step into that at any moment, but you need to practice it over and over and over again in order to really connect to it. I think it’s why mindfulness practice is so important and, you know, really observing that flow, the ongoing flow of experience and staying in it for a period of time is, I think, important. So it has both qualities, easy and hard.

So there’s a guidance tip, I think, you’re saying here is that to get the most out of it, having a regular mindfulness practice is a good way to go. I yeah. That I would definitely support that statement. Are there other tips that you would offer about how to get the most out of making this work? Well, I think, really taking time to, drop into any moment.

You know, mindfulness, people typically think of sitting in a special place and watching the breath or something like that. But anytime you can show up to yourself as a as awareness, as consciousness, whether you’re standing in the shower or standing and basking in the sun and just recognizing the experience of the moment and also being aware that it changes and moves. Like, even when it feels like it’s not shifting, if you show up and are present to it, you observe the shift. The sun on your face will get hotter, and, the shower will you know, you’ll feel different parts of the water hitting your body. Like, we are creatures in motion and we wanna observe that motion, and you can do that at any point in your day.

Doesn’t have to be a formal thing all the time. It can be something that you do in any moment. Just pause and drop in. Yeah. Yeah.

Great. Some useful things to go on there. So, obviously, you’re in, the US, and I understand you’re coming over to the UK in March. Looking forward to it. To you’re running a workshop, aren’t you, called now I’m just trying to pull up the title.

It’s on Monday 5th and Tuesday 6th of March in London, and it’s called Mastering ACT, an Advanced Skills Workshop. Can you say something about kind of what you’re trying to do in that workshop? Who you who you’re who you think it’d be ideal for? Yeah. It is, essentially designed for clinicians who are interested in advancing their skills and acceptance and commitment therapy.

And selfless context work that we’ve been talking about, of course, is inside of that that model, that approach. But I’m gonna be focusing on the interpersonal, intrapersonal, and overarching processes, which are not just about the 6 core processes that are inside of act, diffusion, acceptance, present moment, values, committed action, and selfless context. I wanna, bring those together in a flexible way inside of the context of interpersonal and interpersonal relation and processes and the over and the arc of the therapy. And so it’ll be, skills building work that’s built around recognition of multiple layers of process rather than just implementing the 6 core processes. Oh, wow.

Okay. Yeah. Great. And I know you’ve written several books kind of over the years. I’m just kind of listing them off.

I think I counted 7 or 8 kind of in total. Correct me if I’m wrong. I think it’s not that many, but I that’d be cool if it was. But I noticed kind of you you done learning for learning acts. You’ve done some couples, books, Michael Couple and Act for Couples and Act in Action and and Act for PTSD, of course.

I understand you’re writing a book at the moment. I am. I’m writing a book for New Harbinger. The title is The Heart of Act, Developing a Flexible Process Based and Client Centered Practice Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. I’m nearly finished.

I just have a chapter and a half left to right that goes off to New Harbinger mid month of February and, I believe will be out, at the end of the year, the beginning of, 2019. So and it’ll basically be, reflecting the workshop that I’m doing in London on in March. Okay. So there you’ve got some kind of cohesion going on with those two things. Yeah.

Yeah. So getting aimed at clinicians kind of with the same intentions behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely.

Okay. Well, it’s been wonderful talking to you today, Robin. It’s been great to get your, kind of, your experience of, kind of, using this self help tool and, you know, to hear your, you know, perspective on it. And, I’m I’m guessing the listeners will get a lot out of that. So thanks very much.

Thank you for having me, Jim. It was my pleasure.